Over four days in April, Oregon Business convened 18 businesswomen to participate in an online forum about the challenges women face climbing the corporate ladder. The discussion was prompted by statistics showing that, while women executives continue to make progress toward equity with men in pay and supervisory authority, there's still a long way to go.

We began by asking participants whether Oregon is the same or different from other places they have worked and done business, in terms of women's ability to obtain comparable pay and promotions.

[Participants are identified by city only, i.e., Portland/1 refers to the first person who logged in from Portland, etc.]

DAY ONE
Moderator
Fortune magazine recently ran an article, "How Corporate America is Betraying Women," about existing salary and promotion gaps between men and women and the class-action lawsuits filed against companies like Boeing and Wal-Mart.

In your opinion, is Oregon different? What have you observed or experienced regarding women earning less than men for the same job or being promoted to management less often?

Portland/1
My experience has been that Oregon is different in the sense that women are doing better than the national average as to pay for the same job. I still think there are improvements to be made. Women are still not represented in the numbers they should be, especially in more conservative professions, like law. Women who have children are still discriminated against, even when their work performance is equal to or better than a male co-worker. (I say this as a childless woman based on observations of my peers).

Portland/2
We certainly are not seeing women rising to higher-level positions in law in the proportions that would be predicted based on the percentage of women graduating from law school. (And this has become pretty clear since lawyers coming up for partner now graduated from law school 6-8 years ago when women represented a high proportion (maybe even 50%) of the graduating classes.) I don't attribute this, however, to discrimination, but rather to the incompatibility of the modern day practice of law with demands on someone who also has primary responsibility for childcare. Women without children, or women who have a spouse who has the primary child care responsibility, have the flexibility necessary to meet work and client development demands, and I see many of those women succeeding. Women who have child care demands and therefore cannot consistently be available 24/7 have a tougher path, and I've observed many leave at least the larger firms because they've decided they don't want to or can't make that investment.

Portland/3
I agree that women are not as well represented in law firms and the legal practice in general compared to the proportion of women making up the graduating classes at law schools. Out of the four women I was closest to in law school, I am the only one still practicing. The other three decided to quit their law jobs and focus on raising their children. I may be the only one left from this group because I am the only one without children. However, even though I do not have children, I still have general family responsibilities that must be met, which makes it incredibly difficult to put in the hours and effort that is otherwise required to make it to the next highest level. I agree that the modern practice of law is oftentimes incompatible with many women's needs, but I am not entirely certain that this is unrelated to discrimination. I think it can be a more subtle form of discrimination. Some firms around the country have progressive practices where women can work flexible schedules or work part-time and still be considered for partnership, but I do not think these practices are very widespread, even in Oregon.

Portland/2
Just FYI, I work a part-time flexible schedule at a law firm where both partners and associates have this option. However, it will only work if you can figure out how to meet all your client demands despite your schedule. That is difficult, not because of any discrimination, but just because it's difficult to do without being in the office all the time. Nonetheless, my firm is actively engaged in supporting lawyers (mostly female) who propose part-time arrangements that, based on their professional and outside demands, have the best chance of making it all work.

Portland/4
I believe that Oregon is no different. It may be related to the industries I've worked in, but it has continued to be a struggle to get equal or even near-equal pay. I have had to prove that I have been underpaid and it leaves me with negative thoughts about a company that I otherwise love to work for. The two industries I've been involved with are the trucking industry and real estate. Although there have been many more opportunities for women to rise to the executive level, the industries continue to be run by the "boys at the top".

Coos Bay
As a business co-owner, I cannot agree.

We're not a huge company, with 13 employees, but all of our employees have the exactly same wages, of course, depending on length of employment, and the cap is the same for everybody. We offer flextime for all of employees, which is structured in the way that hours can be worked anytime between 7:30 and 6 pm. Some of the employees work 4-day weeks, in order to have an extra day with the kids.

Roseburg
I've noticed in my position, I've been given a lot of responsibility for my age which is a direct result of my education and work ethic. I have also been compensated fairly for my short time of being employed (approaching 2 years), and am along with the "average" in the US as far as salary and benefits. However, there have been issues with the gender role because we have such a diverse company. Sometimes, males may be paid higher (or lower) due to job descriptions. I haven't noticed any indirect gaps within this company, but I do know of a few other women who have "job hopped" locally because they have received better financial offers from competitors within our labor market.

Moderator
Roseburg — I'd like to understand better what you mean by issues with gender roles because you have such "a diverse company." Could you explain a little more about what you mean by diverse, and how that affects gender roles/salaries? And when you say males may be paid differently due to job descriptions... Could you describe a little more, or give a general example?

Roseburg
Our company consists of 5 different production positions within the production department. The Production department is one of approximately eight subsidiaries in the company (along with Human Resources, Marketing, Accounting, etc.) So, to compare a salary of a female (or male) production person (paint detailer) to an office administrative position or a marketing assistant, they are not on the similar pay scale, even though the hiring, reviewing and processes are all the same for every position.

Portland/5
I think Oregon is different from many states. The fact that we had a female governor, several female mayors, and women in charge of large companies such as PGE, H-P, Columbia Sportswear, etc. puts a visible face forward that other women can look up to. There are some fields that are traditionally male that have been cracked by women in Oregon (e.g. transportation). While there are some levels that are still mostly men, I also think there is a real network of women that make a lot of things in Oregon happen.

Salem/1
I think it depends on the field. There seems to be greater awareness of diversity issues, including gender, in those organizations that deal with government. As one respondent noted, there have been women in leadership positions in both public and private sectors and that is important but overwhelmingly, men lead the organizations with which I deal. So, from my perspective, Oregon really isn't that different.

Lincoln City
I am connected with the lodging industry on the coast. Women are slowly making strides to increase awareness of management opportunities and inequities in this industry. Women are traditionally given smaller properties to manage and then eventually move up to larger properties. I think the tide is turning and we are making progress but it just takes time, effort and lots of networking.

Portland/6
As an executive recruiter, I don't see the salary inequity as much at the top level. I can't speak to the middle management or entry-level positions. As far as promotion, company culture plays as much of a role with ladder climbing as performance. That's where the lawsuits come in. I think most women don't want to play politics to get ahead. I don't blame them. I also think more men are becoming less enamored with the process of climbing the corporate ladder. Men are getting more involved in family, supporting their partners career or striving to create a balance in their life in general. The breadwinner stereotype is just as wrong as the stay at home women. Oregon should be a leader in all of this. I certainly see it in emerging businesses here.

Eugene
Being in the HR field in a male dominated company I have seen great strides in promoting women who have the knowledge and skills applicable to the Management positions available. This change has been gradual over the past 10 to 15 years and in many companies I think the culture has changed to educate and encourage those people making the hiring decisions to forget gender and look at skills and knowledge and experience. As for salaries, the women are paid the same salaries as the men for the same positions. In some areas the women are paid more due to the geographic area, cost of living and market demands. As we have locations in 6 states in the West I have observed this happening in other companies, as well. It probably isn't happening as fast as most of us would like but I believe it is happening.

Tigard
I have lived and worked in several states and don't see Oregon as significantly different than anywhere else in regards to women in leadership positions in corporations or government. I get the same look when I tell someone that I am the president of a company, let alone a manufacturing business.

Moderator
When you say, "I get the same look when I tell someone that I am the president of a company," what kind of look do you get? How would you describe it, or what does it convey?

Tigard
Basically the look is one of surprise that connotates "I am shocked that you are female and running a company, and maybe even more so that I am a female that is a minority." If you asked me what they are responding to the most, I cannot say. It could me that I am a woman, a minority female, or a woman in a manufacturing, therefore non-traditional business. The look I referred to is not a negative connotation, just one of surprise, which means to me that it is still unusual to find women in high level positions.

Portland/7
I work in bio-tech/manufacturing. I have not observed women earning less than men or being passed over for promotions because of their gender in Oregon.

Bend
I work in the wireless telecommunications industry where we are seeing more and more women develop into leadership/key roles that are non-technical at equal or roughly equal to men in similar or the same positions. We struggle with promoting/developing women in technical management positions, as the technical side of the business still seems to be a "mans" world. We don't necessarily equate that to the state of Oregon but to the industry as a whole.

Beaverton
While it is difficult to ignore the statistics, I believe the climate is improving. Ten years ago I left a Fortune 500 company who definitely made a point of promoting women and providing opportunities, however most of us were paid significantly less than our male counterparts. Female friends still in the company report improvements. I am currently the sales and HR Manager for a manufacturing firm where I have been employed for nine years and have not experienced a difference in salaries. That being said I have noted women in our company being looked over, or having to prove themselves in project opportunities that require a more technical aptitude.

Pendleton
I can only speak on my experience in the industry which I work. That being said, I would say Oregon is ahead of many other states in closing the gap between salaries of men vs. women. I became an executive at a young age and felt some discrimination because of my age, rather then gender. I would agree with many of the replies "it depends on the industry".

Portland/8
No Oregon is not different. From 1968 until now.... I have found as time goes on things have improved IF you are assertive enough to stand up and be heard.

DAY TWO
Moderator
During your career, in what ways have you been treated differently than men in the same position?

Tigard
The most distinctive things are social, however, this is one area where things have improved. It is no longer acceptable in corporate America for men's only social activities. But early on, I learned to play golf to develop customer relationships but also to not be excluded from social activities.

Beaverton
Early in my career I felt that male supervisors were "more loose" and socialized more with men in my same position. At the time this made me feel left out. I also felt women managers were more frequently "all business", and did not part take in the socializing that the men did. Perhaps we as women think we will be taken more seriously if we do not stray from our professional image at work. I do think historically men tend to network more effectively.

Salem/1
I agree that most of the differences have been social. For example, I've walked into a room where male colleagues were talking and had them become suddenly very quiet, switch topics, or scatter. I've also noticed this behavior with my subordinates where there is an easy camaraderie between the "guys" and the interaction becomes more formal when a woman joins the group. Not all differences have been in the social arena however.

I was once interviewed for a position where most of the questions related to how I was going to manage my home life if I was offered the position by this firm. I compared notes with a male colleague later, and he was asked substantive questions about his experience and training rather than how he was going to juggle his time.

I think this attitude that women aren't as serious about their careers is changing but it is gradual. As younger people join the workforce, I expect it to change more rapidly. It seems younger workers have fewer stereotypes about women's roles in the home. This is probably because many of them had mothers who worked outside the home.

Portland/1
Having been the only woman on a peer level with men has been an eye-opener. I can't say that I agree that men network better, but it is definitely different with a woman in the room.

In situations where there was a possibility for partnership or promotion I have noticed assumptions made that I "understood" that I would be given the promotion or opportunity and I was not courted in the way I have noticed male colleagues were.

From a social standpoint, the office gossip about me among the men has focused on whether I would have children and if I wanted them while the gossip around my equally single male peers focused on who they were dating. It was a strange distinction and one I'm not entirely sure I understand.

Eugene
As the first female hired in a senior management position in a male dominated industry occasionally in social situations I think the men behaved differently than they would have had I not been there. However, as I always had the support of the CEO and president I rarely if ever was treated differently than the men were treated. I am not sure their difference in behavior was a negative as I think they treated me with respect as a peer and as a female. Also, I learned very quickly to not get offended every time someone swore or told an off colored joke and when I was uncomfortable humor usually worked to remedy the situation.

Salem/2
In many respects I have not been treated differently at all. In a male dominated law firm (I was the only female lawyer), I felt equal to my male peers. At the same time, now that I have moved into a management position in a corporate environment, dominated by women, I often feel like I am treated differently — and by the way, not better by some of the women in my field. We, as women, can be our own worst enemies. Why is it when a woman takes a firm position they are considered "witchy," but when a man takes a firm position, they are considered "strong?" I certainly understand that this is a bit cliché, but unfortunately sometimes true.

Portland/4
I feel I have had to prove my abilities more so than my male counterparts and I have also had to "fight" for my deserved salary increases.

Pendleton
I would say that when I first started my career in the world of finance, there were huge differences in how I was treated by peers. Promotions and salary increases did not come without some force on my part. It seemed difficult for the predominantly male social hour to carry on conversations when I joined them. However, I would report that in the past 12 years this has improved. While I frequently will be the only female around a conference table, it doesn't appear to me that I am being treated differently.

Portland/6
I can't point to a time I've been treated differently. I think social norms have played a big role in the divide but as I said yesterday younger men in the workforce are beginning to change that as well It's not a revolution of women in the workplace anymore, it's the evolution of the workplace and work ethic for everyone.

Lincoln City
I was once asked what form of birth control I used and did I plan to have any more children. I was paid less than the male counterpart but two years later did receive compensation from the company for equal pay in the same position. I have also noticed that when you serve on an industry association there is still a tendency to have a man serve an office such as VP and a woman start with secretary or treasurer.

Bend
I don't believe I've been treated differently, but I've certainly felt as though my professional input has been questioned greater lengths/depths by men than by women. However, as more women have joined the ranks of our management level team the men seem to be more relaxed and accepting of the our feedback, and not always questioning and challenging our input.

Portland/8
Well one particularly irritating one .... is I have never heard a man ask a man to get him a cup of coffee, sweetie. I have never heard a man complain that the boss continuously found ways to brush across a personal area. Wages, yes often, and often not even close to justified. In the early years often assigned the set-up or clean-up committee, the note taker, the wives to herd and entertain....Not being called upon during meetings, assumption that a woman couldn't have a good idea let alone two good ideas, a look and sound of surprise when I would get the opportunity to speak....

Portland/3
As the only female on the professional staff in my office, I find it somewhat troubling when our administrative professionals are out for the day and then I am the one asked to provide assistance with secretarial needs (i.e. "Can you fax this for me? I don't know how to run the scanner, can you scan and e-mail that to me?"), particularly when there are other men in the office who are perfectly capable of providing the same assistance.

DAY THREE
Moderator
How has the playing field in business been leveled for women during the years you have been working?

Portland/4
The playing field has been significantly altered in favor of women in the workplace due to an increase in the number of women working and also the emphasis on workplace diversity. I have to credit minority groups in their education efforts of the general public. When I first entered the workplace, it was acceptable to treat women differently without a second thought. While women are not totally equal yet, the message that it's OK to treat people differently has definitely been erased.

Portland/9
Agreed, the number of women and the changing of cultural norms towards diversity are big factors. Another factor is that more men are seeking a better balance of work and life. When a guy cuts a meeting short to pick up the kids from daycare, it paves the way for a woman to do the same without being identified as not dedicated.

Tigard
As there are more "visible" successful female role models, businesses are becoming more accustomed to women being successful. Women in positions in high level companies and high government offices are paving the way for more women to be accepted in senior and executive positions. However, the playing field is not level today, but the landscape is improving. Most organizations that are adopting diversity first promote women and then increase diversity in other areas.

Portland/5
The fact that there are a lot more women in business makes a big difference. We are not always communicating with men/competing with men. Because of heightened sensitivity, job postings are gender neutral and I think people are really aware of not being discriminatory. Some of the services that used to only be available to women are now available to men too (paternity leave, fathers staying home with sick children). On the other hand, I think people like to do business with people like themselves, so there is still inadvertent discrimination in business.

Moderator
Some of the things I'm hearing you say help level the playing field are:

• Increase in the number of women in business — women more visible, also not always communicating or competing with men.
• More visible successful female role models.
• Sensitivity to diversity in all areas (ethnicity, age, physical ability, etc.) has an effect on gender diversity and pay/promotion equality.
• More men seeking better balance of work and life.

Any others?

Also, when you think about the message that "it's not OK to treat people/women differently" — how have you seen that message reinforced, in your business, company or career?

Salem/1
I think women are more outspoken about unequal treatment so there is a heightened awareness. I've observed this behavior in my own workplace. Diverse populations are more forthright, and that's a positive behavior. It forces co-workers to examine their behavior.

Portland/6
I think leaders that model bad behavior are less likely to find people blindly following them. Company loyalty above all else is dying out. Can't say I've ever seen or heard the message that it is OK to treat certain people differently in my own experience or in my client's companies. It's pretty much a given and if actions don't match up, people speak up or leave.

Tigard
Today's business environment is not the same as 10 years ago. People in general that are dissatisfied with their job or position in a company are more likely to leave in search of a better opportunity. In fact, while it used to be rare to get resumes of people with gaps in employment, today it is more common. Companies are aware of that and more focused on retaining good people. The book Good to Great emphasizes the principal of getting the right people on the bus in the right seats. In my company the emphasis is on right people on the bus.

Portland/3
While a lot of women are now able to enter the workplace in areas that would not have been open to them in years past, there is still a lot of room for improvement in terms of women being able to retain those positions, meet the demands of the workplace, and move up the ladder. I think that the goal of equal treatment, while incredibly helpful to opening previously closed doors, can sometimes also be a hindrance to a woman's career development. In my experience, women are sometimes viewed as being less dedicated if they do not behave exactly like the men at their workplaces. In those situations, the equal treatment ideal is applied so that women must essentially be men in order to succeed, which is a difficult scenario for many women. I think it is important to recognize that differences are not all bad, and having an employer that understands and appreciates those differences (gender, as well as cultural) can lead to flexibility for both men and women to pursue success in their careers. People can still be different and be good at their jobs.

Portland/6
Men are now pushing for more balance, 40 year olds and younger as they come into the ranks of leadership are more involved in their personal life with things other than just work. When we try to relocate a male executive, it is very common to find a working spouse as part of the package, people don't pick up and move to advance their career without considering the quality of life issues and spouse's career. Clients are expressing a need to bring in women in top positions, not just in the service sector but across industries.

It started with more women seeking a college education, making their presence known in the workplace and competing successfully head to head with men. I think will see this issue become less of a topic of discussion in the next decade. (Maybe I'm optimistic)

Eugene
As I have been working for nearly 30 years the changes have been drastic. Women in anything other than nursing or teaching were considered clerical. Today we have women very visible in CEO positions of Fortune 500 companies, as well as other management positions in many fields previously considered male only. Credit goes to new laws, more education and a different culture that tells young women they can be anything they want to be. Salaries are catching up and I expect to see the gap between males and females in the same positions, narrow even more in the next few years. The playing field may still have a couple of bumps but it is considerably more level in 2005.

Lincoln City
I agree that we still have a way to go but we are getting there . I have been in the workforce for over 40 years and can see a vast change. I think that a lot of the "good old boy" executives have retired. We now have a new generation workforce that tries to respect each other's abilities in the work place. We have learned to be team players and are getting very good at it. It can only get better.

Portland/1
Agreed. However, there are still a number of "good old boys" out there. I do think they are more aware of their behavior or at least how it is perceived. Recalling the response of men in the workplace to the Clarence Thomas Supreme Court confirmation hearings and the national discussion regarding sexual harassment — i.e. not being aware of what sexual harassment was prior to these events — I think even the good old boys are more aware, even if their behavior is only modified to avoid a negative outcome and not motivated by more progressive and benevolent reasons.

Portland/8
I question that much leveling has occurred. Women have acquired the knowledge to "play football" better. We have learned the rules of the game and change the tactic as necessary on a play-by-play decision. Those women inclined to be "management" have strong tendencies for excellent logic and rapid evaluation and discard. They are seeking better business oriented educational opportunities and they are coming in to the work arena with the goal of a career, not like in the past when the sudden realization that they can do ......whatever....

Treating women differently is okay if they are different. It is not okay to use a separate set of guidelines as the base for the judgments.

Does the job get done timely? Is she ready and on time for the meetings she is to be at? Is the result accurate and appropriate? Is the presentation awesome? So then what difference does it make that she comes in an hour later than her male co-worker because she drops the children off at day care?

DAY FOUR
Moderator
What factors do you think contribute to a pay gap between men and women?

Portland/2
Here's a list:

• women who choose to take time for childrearing will just be behind and may not be able to catch back up (if they even choose to do that)
• lack of access to the men at the top of the network — contacts who are the people who make the decisions (as the "top" shifts to including more women, access should be easier)
• natural tendency of successful men to mentor young men rather than young women

Portland/1
There are different values placed on different skill sets. It still seems that aggressive behavior is monetarily rewarded, but for women, aggressive behavior is still frequently punished socially.

I'm not sure actual childrearing is as much a factor as the perception that a woman who has children or plans to have children is going to be less productive or will cost the company money. I was recently told by a colleague that her employer admitted to sending someone down to the parking lot during her interview to see if there was child seat in the car. There wasn't. He determined she would be a good fit.

Salem/1
I think difference in education levels is part of this. Some families still push young men to take business-related classes, get part-time jobs during school and strive for advance degrees. Young women are often discouraged from competing with young men for these types of opportunities. All of these things make a difference when a person is pursuing employment.

Portland/6
In my family, we were all expected to get a college education. We were not shown or encouraged to find a career path. As women have invaded higher ed, and now are taking on traditionally male dominated disciplines the gaps will close. In a competitive work environment, women who were raised not to compete, brag or demand have not seen the success those who have. It's much different now, we compete in sports, we're proud of our accomplishments and we ask for what we want. The old guard that wanted to make assumptions about women are a dying breed, still out there, but overtime, pay gaps and other inequities will be the exception.

Eugene
It stems from years of paying lower wages to now having to catch up which takes time. In our company we have done a great job of paying women the same as we pay men in the same job classifications. However, in other companies I am aware they are still trying to catch up. Statistics show the gap is becoming narrower. I am sure there are employers that still don't acknowledge that some women "are" the breadwinners and they get hung up on that issue. Again, over the past 5 to 7 years this is becoming less and less as men become more educated in the skills women often bring to a job.

Portland/4
I believe we are still in a catching up mode when it comes to salaries. I believe this gap will continue to lessen as our population ages. Younger men are not raised in an environment where women's skills are considered less important. I think a great deal of this is due to education regarding diversity that is now part of early education.

Copyright 2005 Oregon Business magazine